[00:00:20.410]
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Wedgehead Pinball podcast. My name is Alan. I'm a co owner Portland pinball bar Wedgehead, and I'm joined today by my co host, Alex the water boy.
[00:00:31.420] - Alex
How's it going? My name is Alex. As Alan just said, we're going to be talking about super pins today, the Bally Williams wide body pinball machines made in the early ninety s. And we're also joined by the other half of Wedgehead, Christopher Rhodes, local operator and legend. I would say I don't know about.
[00:00:49.470] - Rhodes
I would say I don't know about that, but hey, I'm here. I'm ready to talk.
[00:00:52.180] - Alan
All right, so the super pins is the trademark name given to all wide body pins made by Bally Williams beginning from April 1993 through October 1994. They're extra wide machines. These varied by different manufacturers and eras, but all the super pins were the same size. The standard pinball play fields at the time were 20.5 inches wide and the super pins were 23.25 inches wide, so almost three full inches wider. Some of the earlier wide bodies from the 80s are like 27 inches wide, like Paragon. So it's like six and a half inches wider than a standard machine. And those are like super noticeable.
[00:01:29.750] - Rhodes
Yeah.
[00:01:29.950] - Alex
When you walk up to one of those, you're not wondering if it's a wide body.
[00:01:33.180] - Alan
You're like damn, that's a big bitch.
[00:01:35.920] - Rhodes
Well, the heads are all the same size, though.
[00:01:37.570] - Alan
The heads always say it's the cabinet and play field width is what's different.
[00:01:41.150] - Rhodes
Moving it through a doorway though. Everyone's like, is it going to fit? And it's like the head does all the same size.
[00:01:45.760] - Alan
It just means they're going to be heavier, usually like way heavier.
[00:01:49.710] - Rhodes
Way heavier.
[00:01:50.220] - Alex
Yeah.
[00:01:50.840] - Alan
I think the interesting part was, because these started in 93, 92, was when all the pins shot way up. Like the production went way up. That's after Addams family. And you see games like Fishtales and you see all those games. Everyone's designs went through the roof. Like they started selling the crap out of pinball. And that's also kind of when they started making the games have a lot of different mechs and crazy stuff in the games, and they were selling big units. So they came up to the conclusion they're like, let's make them bigger so we could put more stuff in them and we'll market it as a super pin. So every designer who was employed at the time, they got to or were forced to make one, and Pat Lawlor got to make two of them. So he's the only designer at Williams that got to make two. But the first one was, and I think we'll just get into and start talking about each one. But the first one that came out was Twilight zone, designed by Pat Lawlor. It was the first super pin and it was the only one not to have the upgraded DCS sound system that they used in all the pins afterwards.
[00:02:59.200] - Alan
So you still get some of that kind of crackling and low fi noise from the speakers. You notice the sound design is great because Chris Granner did it, aka the goat, but the quality gets better in later Williams games and it's the only one that doesn't have it.
[00:03:13.230] - Alex
Maybe that's how he talked his way into getting a second super pin.
[00:03:18.030] - Rhodes
It's quite a bargaining chip.
[00:03:20.270] - Alan
Twilight Zone was the first game he designed after he broke the all time single machine sales record held by Eight Ball previously with his game Addams family, released in 1992, which sold 21 270 units. Best selling pin of all time. Twilight Zone ends up becoming the second highest selling game of Pat's career with 15,235 units. It was based on the Rod Sterling Sci-Fi tv series from the 1960s and was the last of Pat's infamous four game hot streak that started with Whirlwind, then the next year Funhouse, then Addams Family, then Twilight Zone, which like those four games in a row, is nuts.
[00:03:55.440] - Rhodes
Yeah, good run.
[00:03:56.300] - Alan
It's also his most highly rated game on both pinside and IPDb. It's actually the number one game of all time on the IPDB list.
[00:04:03.980] - Alex
Kind of makes me respect that list more than pinside.
[00:04:06.090] - Alan
I respect it way more than pinside. But they're both flawed. They're both flawed because pinside's the cult of the new.
[00:04:12.190] - Alex
And IPDB is like, ancient.
[00:04:14.630] - Alan
Yeah, ancient. So it's like if you combine them both, you'd have, like a good list.
[00:04:18.660] - Rhodes
It's super ancient. I was talking to Greg Dunlap about it and he was saying that's like one of the first websites that was out there of any kind on the internet, not just about pinball.
[00:04:25.750] - Alex
It makes sense when you look at it. It looks like it was developed in the mid 90s. I love it.
[00:04:30.250] - Rhodes
I love every piece of it.
[00:04:31.910] - Alan
It's funny, though, that people haven't gone on and just spammed Godzilla reviews on there. Because they could, but they don't.
[00:04:39.170] - Alex
Yes, because I think most casual guys don't make it past pinside. That kind of stops them.
[00:04:44.000] - Alan
Let's talk about Twilight zone. Like, what do you guys like about it or dislike about it?
[00:04:47.200] - Rhodes
It's got my favorite shot in pinball on it, the gumball shot. I love hitting that outer loop. That outer loops up that noise yeah, and it's so good, man.
[00:04:57.120] - Alex
And it's got a cool little mech there with the gumball machine. So that is kind of like. It's a fun payout for that.
[00:05:02.340] - Rhodes
I just think the way the sound integration in that game is, we ranked them all, and Twilight zone is definitely the highest for me because just the sound integration of the game is amazing. The way that. I don't know. I like the magnetic upper play field. Everybody's like, oh, the magnets are screwing up this game. Well, there really are magnets in that game that operate it. So it lets people believe that magnets are ruling the world. Is kind of awesome, you know, like, the multi ball is somewhat points, but you got to do all the modes. It's pretty balanced scoring.
[00:05:38.510] - Alex
It's kind of like they took Pat's success from Addams and they actually made it work a lot better. Like, it's a lot more balanced than Addams family feels. It's not just blowing through rooms on the mansion. It's like you got to go through the door, but you can get points other ways. Trying to go around the door is not probably the easiest tournament strategy. So it's like there's a little more nuance than Addams.
[00:05:59.640] - Alan
I think it's excellent. I mean, I don't think you're going to find anyone that doesn't respect it. Certain people might not like it, but just if they don't like Pat Lawlor games, because it is 100% a Pat Lawler game.
[00:06:09.830] - Rhodes
Meaning that it's choppy?
[00:06:11.710] - Alan
It's choppy and it's stop and go.
[00:06:14.710] - Alex
It's no NASCAR.
[00:06:16.560] - Alan
Yeah, it just means it doesn't flow. Yeah, it's one of those games. It plays like fun house. It's like stop, hit a shot, grabs the ball, holds the ball, moves it, rolls through a subway, and is spit back out of a VUK. That's definitely true of Twilight zone, but it has very odd flipper placements, angle shots, and like, it feels claustrophobic, like a lot of his playfields do.
[00:06:35.520] - Rhodes
Yep.
[00:06:35.860] - Alex
It's four flippers upper play field with the Magna flips on it. So is that technically a six flipper game then? We giving it to him?
[00:06:41.970] - Rhodes
No, I'm going to say four.
[00:06:43.590] - Alan
Yeah, I would give it maybe six.
[00:06:45.880] - Alex
It's just kind of funny to have an upper play field with no actual physical flippers on it. And it's like if you play that thing right and you're bouncing it up there, you can stay up there for a while, too.
[00:06:53.880] - Alan
Yeah.
[00:06:54.280] - Rhodes
I don't know.
[00:06:55.270] - Alan
It's very satisfying when you make it through the hole, too.
[00:06:57.830] - Alex
Now, like, talking about it, I'm regretting where I ranked it before we started recording.
[00:07:02.620] - Alan
Yeah. It's too late.
[00:07:03.020] - Rhodes
Already threatened violence with this.
[00:07:05.430] - Alan
With that being said, I'll give the Wedgehead Pinball podcast award for the best mechs and toys for the working gumball machine and clock, the ceramic powerball, which we didn't even talk about...
[00:07:15.600] - Alex
I've got one sitting here, it's awesome.
[00:07:17.000] - Alan
And the upper power magnetic play field. So of the super pins, we're going to give each one an award. And Twilight zone gets best toys and mechs award.
[00:07:24.780] - Rhodes
And was voted best amongst everybody that you polled, too.
[00:07:28.340] - Alan
Well, we'll get to that later. We'll get to that later. Not everybody.
[00:07:31.970] - Rhodes
I just want to talk good about Twilight Zone.
[00:07:33.350] - Alan
Not everybody. Hold on. Spoiler alert. Jeez. The next game that was released was Indiana Jones the pinball adventure. This was designed by Mark Ritchie. Sold 12,716 units, which makes it Mark's second best selling game, only about 1000 units shy of his previous game. Fishtales at 13,640 units, which was released the year before and is right during that big pinball upswing after Addams family. It's also his highest ranked game on both Pinside and IPDB. So out of Mark's whole career, it's his highest ranked game.
[00:08:06.040] - Alex
Strongly disagree with that personally.
[00:08:08.080] - Rhodes
Same. But we're talking super pins.
[00:08:12.350] - Alex
Yeah, I'll keep it focused on that.
[00:08:13.950] - Alan
So what do you guys think about Indiana Jones?
[00:08:16.230] - Rhodes
I mean, that was one of the first games that I wizard moded. I did the wizard mode in. When it was out, it was like probably like 95 or so. Then I was playing it, I think because you said it came out in 93.
[00:08:27.640] - Alex
93.
[00:08:28.070] - Alan
Yeah.
[00:08:28.800] - Rhodes
I used to wait for the bus here in Portland to go down to PSU and finish up my degree. And it was at this place called Coyotes.
[00:08:36.220] - Alan
Coyotes?
[00:08:37.080] - Rhodes
I know it was called Coyotes, like Wiley Coyote. And the woman who owned the place was an Olympic snow skier. And they would sell this Texas toast that was $0.25 apiece.
[00:08:46.540] - Alex
How are you going to be an Olympic skier and name the place Coyotes and not something like you think.
[00:08:50.730] - Rhodes
She had skis and medals up in the place.
[00:08:52.560] - Alex
Okay. Yeah.
[00:08:53.050] - Rhodes
You would get this Texas toast, which was like the thickest piece of white bread. Think of like a Tokio sandwich or something like that.
[00:08:59.240] - Alan
Oh, yeah.
[00:08:59.740] - Rhodes
And she would grill it and it would be like the place to go when you were broke and hungry.
[00:09:03.900] - Rhodes
It was like that's where you would go and play pinball and eat Texas toast.
[00:09:08.910] - Alex
So you're just loaded up on toast playing Indiana Jones.
[00:09:12.370] - Rhodes
Carbs in, playing Indiana Jones.
[00:09:15.510] - Alan
What do you think about the gameplay?
[00:09:17.560] - Rhodes
You're like that toast, man. What the f*ck, man? That's what it reminds me of, like I said, it was the first game I got the wizard mode on. Finished all modes in it.
[00:09:26.870] - Alan
It's definitely a mode based game. It's got some really cool. Like, again, the mechs on this game are really cool. The idol lock is insane.
[00:09:35.040] - Alex
Like that little spinning lock on the right side, you mean?
[00:09:37.510] - Alan
Yeah, dude.
[00:09:38.000] - Rhodes
Yeah.
[00:09:38.250] - Alex
How it spits out, goes across the little gap over the outlane.
[00:09:40.270] - Alan
Oh, it's really cool. And the sound on this is also excellent. Again, Chris Granner.
[00:09:45.760] - Alex
Path of the dead is pretty sick or whatever. Sorry. I'm thinking of... What's that upper play field called on it? I'm thinking of Lord of the Rings. Has the sh*tty. It is a path.
[00:09:53.910] - Alan
Path of adventure.
[00:09:54.840] - Alex
Yeah. Okay. Path of adventure. Yeah. Lord of the Rings kind of did the same thing.
[00:09:57.630] - Rhodes
By George Gomez, it's not movable though.
[00:10:00.490] - Alex
Yep. Yeah.
[00:10:00.930] - Alan
George Gomez, that hack. Totally stole that hack. But it doesn't even move, so it's, like, really hackish. No, just Lord of the Rings is garbage. Garbage game. Not a super pin. That's why it sucks. Mediocre pin. No but, I think Indy's fun. I gave it the award for best world under glass and theme integration. And part of that, some of the mechs, like the idol lock, it's got the sculpted kind of mountains around it so it looks like a little temple. It's got the planes, it's got the gun. Like the art looks like it. The sound looks like. It feels like Indiana Jones when you play it. Like, the whipping when you get a replay.
[00:10:39.130] - Rhodes
To say that, when you get the bonus multiplier, it cracks the whip when you get all the lanes up top.
[00:10:44.880] - Alex
Yeah.
[00:10:45.150] - Rhodes
Pretty dope.
[00:10:45.700] - Alan
Plus you actually get the call outs from the movies. Like, you cheat Dr. Jones.
[00:10:49.970] - Rhodes
Yeah.
[00:10:50.340] - Alan
And you get like, I hate you. I hate you. Yeah, it's fun. I love Indiana Jones. I love the movies. So that theme is, like, top tier.
[00:11:01.080] - Alex
It's really that theme. It's a big theme and it's executed well. I think a big part of that is why people like the game so much, why it's so valuable. Because for being, like, they made 13,000 of them and it's still a really expensive game.
[00:11:13.140] - Alan
I think it's overall the most expensive.
[00:11:16.050] - Alex
It's probably the most expensive bally/williams game period.
[00:11:17.490] - Alan
Definitely, with Twilight Zone is, like, right there after it.
[00:11:21.080] - Rhodes
I think it's the most bleached out of all the cabinets. Good luck finding an original cabinet that isn't faded.
[00:11:31.920] - Alex
So I'm not a big Indiana Jones fan. And part of that's because the game...
[00:11:35.940] - Alan
The theme or the game?
[00:11:37.470] - Alex
The game.
[00:11:37.790] - Alan
Okay.
[00:11:38.030] - Alex
Talking about pinball here, it's a pinball podcast.
[00:11:39.780] - Alan
Okay.
[00:11:40.220] - Alex
A lot of the time you see them on location and...
[00:11:41.150] - Alan
Gary Stern would tell you that theme matters, bro.
[00:11:44.480] - Rhodes
It does.
[00:11:45.600] - Alex
It does. And I like the movies, but I'm not ecstatic about them. But a lot of the ones I've seen on location are broken, and that's a recurring theme. A lot of super pins. If you have less than excellent operators, you see a lot of super pins.
[00:11:58.540] - Alan
Thankfully, we don't know anything about that.
[00:12:00.140] - Alex
No. The only operator in this room being the world's best operator.
[00:12:05.270] - Rhodes
Yeah.
[00:12:05.740] - Alex
That's why it's kind of funny. It's just one of those ones that. It's like, the first couple of times I played it, I'm like, this is a $13,000 pinball machine? Like, it's garbage because the locks are disabled. sh*t like that.
[00:12:15.920] - Alan
Yeah. If the stuff doesn't work, like, the path doesn't work, if the flippers are too weak so you can't make the very steep ramps, then it does lose its charm. The mode hole start is notorious for rejects. It's so hard to get flippers strong enough to make the ramps but not bounce out of that saucer hole.
[00:12:33.270] - Rhodes
I've seen all sorts of stuff stuck in the back of that hole to prevent it. Like little pieces of foam and stuff like that.
[00:12:39.320] - Alan
Yeah. There's a lot of different ways to. So it's not, to me, the best shooting of the super pins, but the theme integration is next level. I really love the theme integration.
[00:12:49.510] - Alex
When you're ripping those ramps, though, then it's like that is fun.
[00:12:52.780] - Alan
It's fun. And I love the captive ball that goes up vertical. You smack it, it goes boom, and then comes back and it hits the ball back at you. That is f*cking cool.
[00:13:02.030] - Rhodes
It's got all the video modes, too, which you guys have covered.
[00:13:04.530] - Alan
Yeah. And I think that those are all pretty good. They're all pretty good.
[00:13:07.640] - Rhodes
I really like the well of souls. That was always my favorite part of that game, getting the six ball, multi ball or whatever it was. And then you could really just work it over because you get those drop targets down and just boom, boom, boom, boom and just collect maximum points.
[00:13:21.940] - Alex
Yeah.
[00:13:22.260] - Alan
It's a well regarded game for a reason. It's one of the best. I mean, this is what people think about when they think about 90s Bally Williams games. So the game that followed it was Judge Dredd. It was designed by inball Voldemort, John Trudeau. Whom nobody wants to talk about. We'll talk about him in a future episode about this guy, or you can google it yourselves in the meantime. It sold 6990 units. It was his third best selling game of all time, after Bride of Pinbot and Creature from the Black Lagoon.
[00:13:53.270] - Rhodes
Both good games.
[00:13:54.320] - Alan
Yeah, both very good games. But what do you guys think about Dredd?
[00:13:59.300] - Alex
I don't think too highly of it.
[00:14:01.550] - Rhodes
It's confusing, man. That game is really confusing. I think the way that they intended the lock to work on it, they disabled it. Only the prototypes work the way that the lock actually should.
[00:14:12.530] - Alan
Oh, and the spinning disk. Yeah, they made a mod that you can buy for the dead world because it's got this giant planet that's called the dead world. It's got these big plastic spinning disk pieces that spin around it the whole time. And the game was supposed to lock balls, and those balls would be locked and spin around until you started the multi ball. And in the final production version, that doesn't work. It spins, but it doesn't do anything. And somebody made a mod. The dead world mod brings that big central mech back into the game, and it does make it more fun.
[00:14:45.160] - Alex
That's cool.
[00:14:45.880] - Alan
Yeah, like, that part is cool.
[00:14:47.340] - Rhodes
There's all those loops up top, which I've owned one and I played it a million times. I still not even really sure what they f*cking do. There's that little flipper up there and those loops, and it's just like. And the way those drop targets work in front of the hole and the hole is kind of off centered. But it just is goofy to me.
[00:15:06.770] - Alan
I think it lacks fun in its basic form. This is what I think is a good example of why there's some people in the hobby into pinball that hate wide bodies. Wide bodies for people that don't like them...I think there's good and bad ones. So it's not like I hate wide bodies or love them. I think that some people refer to them as like, they're bloated. They feel floatier because the ball has more lateral movement side to side because the play field is wider. This game is a good example to me of, like, there's a lot of shots. They don't necessarily feel fun. He does try to change the lower third of the play field with the center lane is actually the outlane, and it goes around the left and there's a kickback and there's stuff in it, but I don't think it's fun to play personally. I don't think a lot of people think it's very fun or rate it very highly out of the super pins.
[00:15:58.120] - Alex
Yeah, it's one that I've not played much. And I'd like to. Like if you guys had one on the floor or somewhere I regularly go, had one, I would try to play it more because I feel like I should give it more of a shot than I have, but it just doesn't pull me in.
[00:16:10.010] - Alan
So I remember it being really dark, too.
[00:16:12.010] - Rhodes
Yeah, it's super dark.
[00:16:13.420] - Alan
Super dark.
[00:16:14.130] - Rhodes
And the theme of it, I don't really understand.
[00:16:18.230] - Rhodes
Who is Judge Dredd?
[00:16:19.420] - Alan
Yeah, he's a comic book character. And the thing is, which I think we're going to talk about the best part of the whole game, which is the art, the artwork of the game. They went comic book style. The artist is Kevin O'Connor, who's been a pinball artist forever. He did like the Black Knight games. He's done a bunch of games. And I think it's f*cking unreal. Like, from the backglass to the play field, the cabinet art is so sick and it's got this crazy plastic gold eagle topper. It looks super fascist. It's like it's meant to look like that because Judge Dredd is supposed to be like judge, jury, and executioner. He's like a total fascist state. And so it's just like the art package of it is incredible. Which is why I'm going to give the award for best art package to Kevin O'Connor for his art package on Judge Dredd. Because especially that cabinet art where he's riding the motorcycle and the bullets are flying past him. It's cool, dude.
[00:17:21.250] - Alex
That's true, the art is sick.
[00:17:22.500] - Rhodes
You cannot not talk about the final animation in it, though. Oh, yeah, it is the best. Like, the grandma sitting on the porch, like, in a rocking chair. Drive by comes by. Then she pulls out a shotgun.
[00:17:36.450] - Alex
Yeah.
[00:17:36.690] - Alan
And she goes boom, boom, boom. And that gives you your match. That's the best animation maybe, in any dot matrix game ever.
[00:17:43.670] - Rhodes
I don't know about that.
[00:17:44.610] - Alan
But the other one to me is like, it's either that one or the one I always come back to is the replay of the drumming fish in Fishtales.
[00:17:52.880] - Rhodes
Dude, a fish playing a drum set rules. It's so good.
[00:17:55.060] - Alex
I love that we all just love that. We're all like, oh, yeah, it's got to be the drumming fish.
[00:17:58.110] - Alan
Top tier. Yeah, that's S tier stuff.
[00:18:00.090] - Rhodes
I really like the extra ball in creature too.
[00:18:04.810] - Alex
Yeah, that's a good one.
[00:18:06.410] - Rhodes
Claws just couldn't bring it.
[00:18:08.240] - Alex
Creature has some cool animations and stuff. Dredd was kind of an odd theme for them to go all in on a super pin. Just a comic theme. It didn't even have the movie out yet.
[00:18:16.700] - Alan
I looked this up because I guess it was extremely popular in the 1990s. It had a really big resurgence, and the 90s were when comic book companies were printing a sh*tload of comic books because the first generation of the classic comic books were selling for crazy money. So this is the era where they started printing unique, like, foil covers and alternates. So comic book culture became really big in the 1990s and the character of Dredd was super popular for some reason.
[00:18:44.330] - Rhodes
When was Judge Dredd originally made? Is it like in the 70s?
[00:18:48.020] - Alan
See, I didn't go that far. This is a pinball podcast. I just know because I thought the same thing. I was like, what a weird theme.
[00:18:58.810] - Alex
They made a big budget movie too. The Sly Stallone movie came out, like, a year or two after Judge Dredd.
[00:19:05.060] - Alan
It was inspired by the pin, obviously.
[00:19:07.390] - Rhodes
Yeah.
[00:19:07.920] - Alex
Based off of the hit pin. You played the pin, now see the movie!
[00:19:12.230] - Rhodes
True. So true.
[00:19:13.600] - Alan
The game after that was Star Trek the Next Generation.
[00:19:17.530] - Alex
Oh, yeah.
[00:19:18.310] - Alan
Designed by Steve Ritchie, the King, who, if you want to know more about Steve or Mark, who we mentioned earlier, you can listen to our second episode where we talk about the Ritchie brothers. It sold 11,728 units, which is big, very big for pinball companies. But it doesn't even crack his own top five best selling games since he was basically the king of selling games.
[00:19:40.180] - Rhodes
Dude. Yeah.
[00:19:40.960] - Alan
Steve's a f*cking stud.
[00:19:42.190] - Alex
Nobody does it better.
[00:19:43.450] - Alan
However, it's his best ranked game on IPDB.
[00:19:46.420] - Alex
Really?
[00:19:46.990] - Alan
Yep. And it's his second best ranked game on pinside, ironically. It's second to his other later Star Trek game that he made for Stern. We usually call Stern Trek.
[00:19:59.220] - Rhodes
Yep.
[00:19:59.610] - Alex
Interesting.
[00:20:00.190] - Rhodes
Stern Trek is ranked higher than Next gen?.
[00:20:02.910] - Alex
If you look at the pinside ratings, you'll just have an aneurysm. It's all recency bias.
[00:20:07.640] - Rhodes
Guys, I don't know a lot about pinside, and there's a good reason, I think.
[00:20:10.370] - Alan
Yeah, I think Stern Trek is a great game, though. It's not that it's bad. But I don't think it's his best game of all time, dude.
[00:20:17.320] - Alex
Stern Trek is ike if you took next gen and trimmed the fat.
[00:20:20.090] - Rhodes
No, it's like he took Spiderman, and you put a bunch of Star Trek stickers all over it.
[00:20:26.010] - Alex
It's like Spider man kind of genuinely trimmed down with a bad movie as a theme.
[00:20:32.880] - Alan
We talked about that in the Steve Ritchie / Mark Ritchie episode, where the criticisms against Steve is that he makes very similar playfield choices a lot, and some people hate that.
[00:20:44.030] - Rhodes
Well, that's not true with Star Trek Next Gen.
[00:20:45.400] - Alan
This Star Trek was the first time he did that layout.
[00:20:48.630] - Alex
Yeah, because that's the first time he does the hyperloop ramp.
[00:20:51.400] - Rhodes
Right.
[00:20:51.570] - Alex
That upper flipper repeating.
[00:20:52.920] - Alan
The warp ramp.
[00:20:54.050] - Alex
Yeah, because everyone calls it the warp ramp now.
[00:20:55.800] - Alan
Yeah. That side ramp that you can loop over and over.
[00:20:58.980] - Alex
The Piccard maneuver. Like, there's a lot of the big kind of his hallmarks came from Next Gen. It seems like the modern Steve Ritchie blueprint.
[00:21:06.210] - Rhodes
You know, I kind of forgot about Next Gen until we put it on the floor at Wedgehead, and then it's like getting back at it again. It's like. It's fun. Good.
[00:21:15.500] - Alex
That was my experience with it, too. I had played it when I first got into pinball not that long ago, but a few years now, it was considered to be one of, like, the biggest bargains. Like, this is what you should buy if you're willing to work on games yourself, because it can have problems with all the Optos and stuff. But it was, like, by far the best bargain because when I got into the hobby a few years ago, I think you could get them, like, three ish grand.
[00:21:36.110] - Rhodes
What?
[00:21:36.540] - Alex
Three, four? No, they were cheap.
[00:21:38.080] - Rhodes
Are you serious?
[00:21:38.790] - Alex
They were cheap.
[00:21:39.360] - Alan
Maybe in Sioux Falls, maybe Midwest prices.
[00:21:41.870] - Alex
Midwest prices, and they made a lot of them. And people, it just had a bad reputation at the time. And it's like, since then, they've definitely bounced back. They're still cheap compared to, like, a Twilight zone or Indiana Jones.
[00:21:51.870] - Alan
It is cheaper than those, which I cannot believe. It's every bit as good or better than those games.
[00:21:56.820] - Rhodes
It's knocking on the door of Twilight Zone, for sure.
[00:22:01.370] - Rhodes
The reason why I like it so much is because it's f*cking hard.
[00:22:04.010] - Alan
So f*cking hard, dude.
[00:22:05.180] - Rhodes
Really hard. And that's what makes a game fun.
[00:22:07.900] - Alan
It's the hardest of the super pins, right?
[00:22:12.250] - Alex
It does a good job. It's like, it has those orbit shots that you really want to nail. And orbit shots on a wide body are way harder to me because they're later on the flipper than a narrow standard body game.
[00:22:21.430] - Alan
And they have a little bit further to go. Those extra three inches. Sometimes it just doesn't exactly go all the way around.
[00:22:26.580] - Rhodes
Well, it's got to go through the spinner on the left side, too. Yeah, it's sick.
[00:22:30.980] - Alex
And then it has the super mean outlanes. He's used that in some other games. But where he makes the top of the sling fatter and angled towards the outlanes. Yeah, it's got some of the meanest outlane situations possible.
[00:22:41.760] - Rhodes
The slingshot shape is like not a triangle, right?
[00:22:45.590] - Alex
It's a trapezoid. It's got like a two inch section on the top of it. The outlanes, it's just amazing dude.
[00:22:52.400] - Rhodes
I saw him talk up in Seattle about it and somebody is like, how come the outlanes are like that? The question was, of course, ten minutes long. And it was like, why are the outlanes so hard on Star Trek? And basically he was like, well, you could get some nails and put them in the thing and that's how you could fix it. He was basically just like, f*ck you. Quit crying.
[00:23:14.980] - Alex
Dumb question.
[00:23:15.600] - Rhodes
Just play it. He was just like, get some nails. That'll fix it.
[00:23:19.950] - Alan
Yeah, you can close off the outlanes that way.
[00:23:22.100] - Alex
That game is sick. I think what would you say are like, the criticisms lobbied at? It usually would be that it has all the problems with the optos. So again, bad operator. If the game's filthy, the optos seem to hang on.
[00:23:32.470] - Rhodes
I think with the paddock or whatever it's called, where you go through the tunnel. It can be a little bit exploited.
[00:23:38.480] - Alan
For the video mode I hate because it's so exploitable, because all you have to do, you can choose it off the plunge if you want. In standard settings, we disabled that. You can choose it as one of your skill shots. But still, if you hit the ramp three times, then it's lit at the right orbit, and then if you memorize the path, you can get two or 300 mil the easy way and get an extra ball. And I wish you could just disable the video mode, at least in tournament play or something.
[00:24:05.000] - Alex
I iwsh a lot of games that you could disable the video mode. That'd be a nice.
[00:24:07.200] - Alan
Hey, you were the one that liked video modes in our video mode episode!
[00:24:08.690] - Alex
I mean, I like some...
[00:24:10.030] - Rhodes
We've already covered this.
[00:24:10.850] - Alan
I know, but I would say that Star Trek, to me, I think most of the hate, if people hate it, is like you're either a home guy that doesn't know how to fix games, and that game probably does take a little more TLC over time to keep it running.
[00:24:23.510] - Rhodes
I mean, generally another reason why we like having it at Wedgehead, is because everyone is always like "good luck".
[00:24:28.590] - Alan
Everyone always goes, good luck keeping it running. We're like, yeah, f*ck that. We'll keep it running because we care enough. We're going to make sure it works.
[00:24:34.710] - Rhodes
Give us a challenge.
[00:24:35.770] - Alan
Yeah, but I think it's just hard, dude. I think it's just like the fact that it's hard makes people dislike a game more or less, because even if it's less sensitive to setup, it's like, it's f*cking hard. No matter how it's set up. Even guys that put like silicone bands on it and stuff, it's like, it's still hard.
[00:24:53.290] - Alex
Like short of putting nails into the play field, you're not gonna make it too much easier.
[00:24:56.550] - Alan
But I think the sound, I think the call outs, I think the art, like the light show, it's another Dwight Sullivan coded game. I think he gives you really good moments. The cannons that move back and forth.
[00:25:07.570] - Rhodes
Those are super cool.
[00:25:08.770] - Alex
It's funny because it's like Ritchie took the opportunity to do a super pin and he's like, I'm going to just put more of the sh*t I like into this game, not trying to reinvent the wheel. And it just worked really well. I like that thing a lot.
[00:25:21.060] - Alan
I love that game. I mean, we'll get to our rankings at the end, but it'll be high up for me. So I'll give the award for best rules and code. With the only caveat being the video mode was exploitable, but that was of the time. But I think Dwight Sullivan, the main software engineer on that game, did a kick ass job because you can go for warps, you can go for multiball, or you can go for modes to get to final frontier. All of those things are worth a lot of points if you do them right. So you have three truly viable strategies, and it just depends on how you want to play.
[00:25:52.560] - Rhodes
And I love that it doesn't pay to time out the modes either, because you get the artifacts.
[00:25:57.580] - Alan
Some people do though, some people do. Just to get to final frontier in tournament play.
[00:26:00.880] - Rhodes
Major mistake though, because your final frontier is so much bigger if you have collected the artifacts from the modes.
[00:26:04.470] - Alan
Oh, yeah, I think it's coded very well, with the exception of the video mode. I think it's the best coded of all the super pins. So that's why I'm giving that the award. Now we're going from a high point to a low point. This is a game we talked about on the podcast before. It's Popeye Saves the Earth. The Pop's pinball guys out in Boston defended as their Die on the Hill game.
[00:26:29.150] - Alex
So since we recorded that episode. You guys recorded that episode. I wasn't on it. I went and played a Popeyes. And that game is every bit as sh*tty as the Internet will lead you to believe. It's garbage man. There's not much to redeem it. It's a horrible theme. It's a horrible layout. They f*cking tried their best to do something unique with all the f*cking plastic in there. It's, like, goddamn. Like, enough plastic to fill a landfill. And that's the only place that game belongs.
[00:26:55.430] - Rhodes
The postal carrier at Wedgehead is so pissed because we're actually getting physical hate mail about Popeye.
[00:27:03.270] - Alan
Okay, so Popeye was designed by Barry Oursler, who's a great pinball designer, but also collaborated, this time with Python Anghelo. I'd like to blame Python for how badly this game turned out, because I know Barry can make good games.
[00:27:17.030] - Alex
I was going to say Barry has made some of my absolute favorite games of all time. Yeah, he does.
[00:27:22.110] - Alan
He made Bram Stoker's Dracula, so the guy knows what he's doing.
[00:27:24.830] - Alex
Yeah, he did some cool sh*t.
[00:27:26.530] - Alan
It only sold 4217 units. And again, this is still, like, in the time where they're selling big units. So this is bad. So it's, like, really the first flop, and it probably only sold the 4200 units because they were forcing distributors to buy it if they wanted a Mortal Kombat arcade cabinet, which everybody wanted.
[00:27:47.200] - Alex
Wow.
[00:27:48.020] - Alan
Yeah. So they made them take them to get their allotments of Mortal Kombat games, which they could then sell.
[00:27:53.570] - Alex
And they should do that.
[00:27:55.580] - Alan
Yeah, it is a flex.
[00:27:56.480] - Alex
You should implement that model with pinball and be like, if you want to play the new game that just came out, you got to go play, like, five games of, like, a classic first.
[00:28:03.900] - Alan
No, we got to be like, you got to get a certain score on a classic. You got to be like, you got to play Sing Along until you can break two k. I like it.
[00:28:10.810] - Rhodes
No, let people do whatever they want.
[00:28:12.610] - Alex
I just like them.
[00:28:13.620] - Rhodes
This is Oregon.
[00:28:14.630] - Alex
Forcing Popeyes on operators is the funniest sh*t possible.
[00:28:18.980] - Alan
It's very funny.
[00:28:19.800] - Rhodes
I mean, I bet they just bought them and put them right in the warehouse.
[00:28:23.070] - Alan
Supposedly, a lot of them just got used for parts and stuff.
[00:28:26.690] - Alex
Yeah, because, like you said, it sold like sh*t. Even with that, it was about half of judge Dredd, which up to that point was by far the least.
[00:28:32.980] - Rhodes
Well, from what I've understood, I've talked to old operators here in Oregon, and they said that Twilight Zone, they couldn't get rid of all those. Like, they were practically giving them away.
[00:28:41.800] - Alan
I think that there's a difference between the olden days, which still happens somewhat, but it's like the olden days. The manufacturers would make the games. They'd sell through distributors. So distributors are like car dealerships, and then operators would buy them. So it's like the games that are made, all they have to do is sell to their distributor, and then the distributor has a warehouse of games that they're selling to operators. And now they sell a lot to home collectors as well. But all the manufacturers trying to do is make them and then sell them to a distributor wholesale. So that's what the numbers are referring to. But I think what happened to Twilight Zone is it was coming off of Addams family. It's Pat Lawlor. So they made more than they probably should have in anticipation of selling huge units, so then they were sitting around in warehouses for years afterwards.
[00:29:24.310] - Alex
The think that's kind of the story I've always heard because I've heard that, too. I meant to ask that earlier, but we already talked about Twilight zone so much at that point.
[00:29:32.520] - Rhodes
Yeah, I definitely have heard that in Oregon. I've heard it from two different people.
[00:29:36.230] - Alan
Yeah, kind of funny. You hear some old school stories about people getting new inbox Twilight zones for like two k or something, like back in the day.
[00:29:43.710] - Alex
Yeah.
[00:29:43.950] - Rhodes
Curtis out at Portland pinball repair has his receipts still from when he got his.
[00:29:49.070] - Alan
Yeah, that's awesome.
[00:29:49.900] - Alex
Yeah, because I've seen that online, just guys saying, like, you could buy a Twilight zone new in box six years later kind of thing. They were just sitting.
[00:29:56.130] - Alan
I think they simply overproduced them. They were trying to get ahead of the curve because they were like, oh, there's going to be another Addams.
[00:30:01.530] - Alex
We got another Adams on our hand. And it wasn't quite the same.
[00:30:03.950] - Alan
That wasn't quite what could be.
[00:30:05.700] - Rhodes
Well, it has become that.
[00:30:07.220] - Alan
It has become that. Absolutely. It's grown in popularity since.
[00:30:08.680] - Alex
That's why it's funny to look at some of them in retrospect.
[00:30:11.050] - Alan
It's just like movies, man. It's like some movies are big hits when they come out like Jurassic park and then remain big hits. And then there are other movies that are cult classics, that don't do well at launch, and find their audience later. Sleepers.
[00:30:19.890] - Alex
It's like. And that's what. Yeah, very much so. Do we need to talk about this?
[00:30:23.800] - Alan
So Popeye was just. It sucks, man. I think we all think it sucks. Next.
[00:30:28.330] - Alex
Yeah, we already got an episode in the can.
[00:30:32.330] - Rhodes
Yeah.
[00:30:32.860] - Rhodes
Think about all the Megabyte trees that have been wasted in the making of this podcast talking about Popeye.
[00:30:35.870] - Alan
You can go back and listen to that. Make up your own mind. I went back like Alex said, we went out and played it, and it's worse than I remember. So I will give the award for Popeye Saves the Earth as the only game that actually ruined somebody's career because it was so bad. This was Python's last game at Williams, he had worked on a prototype that was never going to get released called the Pinball Circus. But Python was a big mainstay at Williams, and this was his way out. And then he goes over to Capcom, and sinks that company too.
[00:31:04.290] - Alex
Yeah, he kind of did, that's kind of funny to think about.
[00:31:07.480] - Alan
We'll talk about more about Python in his own episode. He deserves his own episode because he's a very fascinating character. But the next game was Demolition Man.
[00:31:15.800] - Alex
Oh, yeah.
[00:31:16.860] - Alan
Designed by my man, Dennis Nordman, who needs his own episode because I'm a big Dennis Nordman guy. It sold 7019 units. It was based on the f*cking fantastic movie starring Sylvester Stallone, Wesley Snipes, and Sandra Bullock. It was his second highest selling design after Whitewater the year before at 9008 units, which is my favorite game of all time. And I think both the movie, which has now become a cult classic, and is a movie that I unequivocally love, has become a cult classic. Rhodes: Yeah, in some people's minds, I guess. Alan: The movie is sick. I'm not taking this slander from y'all.
[00:31:51.510] - Alex
I like that we have him outnumbered for once. Normally, you get into these conversations with Alan one on one. I don't know if anybody online is like, oh, cult classic.
[00:32:01.980] - Rhodes
I think Cult classic is so different by age because I'm 50 years old and it's not a cult classic for me.
[00:32:07.770] - Alex
And how old are you?
[00:32:08.780] - Alan
37.
[00:32:10.810] - Rhodes
Yeah. And you are 16? Yeah. So it's like, cult classic means for me, it would never get Cult classic, because I remember when it came out, like, the movie came out, it was like, are you f*cking kidding me about this movie?
[00:32:25.170] - Alex
It's cool.
[00:32:25.980] - Alan
It's funny, man.
[00:32:26.900] - Alex
I've seen it a while back. I like Wesley Snipes, so, you know, it's cool.
[00:32:30.640] - Alan
It's corny. I mean, it's campy, dude. It's high camp. It's action cheese. I f*cking love that sh*t.
[00:32:36.140] - Alex
Action cheese is the best way to say it.
[00:32:37.090] - Alan
Like. It's action cheese.
[00:32:38.440] - Rhodes
Well, regardless of the fact the pinball machine is f*cking fun as sh*t, the.
[00:32:41.750] - Alex
Pinball machine has probably some of the flowiest, best feeling ramps in all of pinball. Like, when you are nailing those, they're so long because it's a wide body and they're so swoopy because Bally Williams didn't ever say no. They just let Dennis Nordaman do whatever the f*ck he.
[00:32:57.400] - Alan
Yeah.
[00:32:57.900] - Alex
And it's so sick. It's also got a very cool little mech when it's actually working with that.
[00:33:03.070] - Alan
Cryo claw, which ours always worked.
[00:33:05.680] - Alex
You get to select whatever you kind of like prize payout you want. It's like you can get into a mode, you can lock a ball with it, you can just like.
[00:33:14.590] - Rhodes
Yeah, basically you can go straight locks in the game or you can play the modes.
[00:33:19.490] - Alan
You can play the modes and there are two strategies, and they both kind of pay the same. And it has two wizard modes. I didn't even realize that because there's the main multiballs, which are through all the locks and then there's like the cryoprison multiball. Is that the final one? I forget which one's the final one, the wizard mode.
[00:33:36.410] - Alan
And then if you finish all the modes on the cryoclaw, that's Demolition Time. It's a second wizard mode. So it's a deep game. It's fun. It's not 100% balanced, but it's pretty well balanced. And it's super fun.
[00:33:52.940] - Alex
It's super fun. It's like when you could just turn the video and sound and everything off in just flipping that thing as a whitewood, it would be a blast. The shots feel so good.
[00:34:04.430] - Alan
I think it gets dragged down by its theme, which I think is a shame because I love the theme, but whatever.
[00:34:10.180] - Rhodes
That translight is the most remade translight out of any translight though.
[00:34:16.500] - Alan
Do you know the story of that though? Okay, so the story of that is anytime you're doing with licensors, you have to get licensor approval. And when you're doing with actors themselves, they get other approval for their own likenesses. So, like, I forget what studio made Demolition Man say it's universal or whatever, you have to get their license because it's their IP. But then each actor owns their own likeness as their own IP. So even if they're in the movie, if you want to portray them, that's not in something that they agreed to beforehand, like stills taken for the IP, you have to get them to agree on it. So what happens is the first couple renditions of the backglass, Wesley Snipes was like, he thought he looked too crazy and he didn't want to look like a bad guy even though he is an insane psychopath in the movie, probably worried about getting typecast.
[00:34:57.390] - Alex
Yeah.
[00:34:58.050] - Alan
And he wanted to make sure that he was just as big as Stallone. So then they had to make the three of them, like equal size like.
[00:35:04.850] - Alex
It's good glimpse of, like, when people complain when a game comes out and they're like, oh, why, they should have done this. And it's like, dude, the hoops, they have to jump through that's why games end up the way they are.
[00:35:14.470] - Alan
You never know what they have to really go through behind the scenes.
[00:35:16.470] - Alex
Like, of course we all want to see every character on the game, we all have sh*t we want to see, and there's a reason it doesn't happen.
[00:35:23.220] - Rhodes
I think all the backglasses should be left alone, but, I mean, I was just like, leave the artwork alone. Let it be what it is.
[00:35:30.380] - Alan
That's a different episode that we're going to do, which is, like, on alternate backglasses as part of modding games. I could get into that one, but there's a lot of meat on that because I think everyone, whether you're for alternate backglasses or against them, everyone has strongly held opinions.
[00:35:46.910] - Alex
What I was going to say is my biggest criticism against Demo Man would probably be...
[00:35:50.770] - Alan
Watch your mouth.
[00:35:53.550] - Alex
The two captive balls or captive shots on the left side.
[00:35:57.700] - Rhodes
The whole left side.
[00:35:58.440] - Alex
The whole left side is kind of just a waste of space. Alan's like, no.
[00:36:04.610] - Rhodes
You know why that's good, though, is because when you're trying to f*cking save a ball and you hit it into that left side, you know you're in deep, deep sh*t.
[00:36:11.730] - Alex
That's true.
[00:36:12.500] - Rhodes
So it's like it has a purpose.
[00:36:15.390] - Alan
Listen, the car crash, even though it's a cool feature, or mech doesn't do a whole lot. But the other one, the eyeball one.
[00:36:22.560] - Rhodes
Retna Scan, baby.
[00:36:23.750] - Alan
The eyeball one is: one, thematically appropriate. And two, you can get an extra ball through there. Okay.
[00:36:29.150] - Alex
Yeah. Okay.
[00:36:30.010] - Alan
And it'll start the explode lamps hurry ups on all the shots, so it is worth points. It's just about its risk reward, dude. You play it like a coward. So you don't want to think it has purpose but it does.
[00:36:40.690] - Alex
It's not a very fun use of prime real estate on a pinball.
[00:36:43.710] - Alan
Disagree.
[00:36:45.250] - Alex
I'm just saying that's my thing.
[00:36:46.470] - Rhodes
You could score really well by not hitting the ball over there, but I just kind of turn off my thinking that you get to hit it over there.
[00:36:55.170] - Alan
There's reasons to shoot it over there. Whether or not you like it, there are reasons to hit the retina scan. I will say that. Ending thoughts on Demo Man, is the award for best flow of all the super pins with unlimited combos. I think it's the best shooting of all of them.
[00:37:08.660] - Rhodes
Didn't even talk about the handles to play the game with.
[00:37:13.660] - Alan
Which you have to play with in my opinion. Some people hate that you do, but I love that every combo you make, and this is a flow game where you want to hit shots in combo. It doubles your combos. It gives you a totally different play experience, and it pays you for it.
[00:37:27.630] - Alex
I don't like that, personally.
[00:37:29.430] - Rhodes
Me neither.
[00:37:30.010] - Alex
But I think I'm not going to hold it against the game. It's like they tried something different. It's thematic. It's whatever. Yeah, I don't like it.
[00:37:36.290] - Rhodes
You know how they were kind of talking about how Popeye Saves the Earth was kind of like, oh, it drew people in because it looks different. Like it's a boat. And the thing, I think those handles right there is another thing that people who don't know anything about pinball are like, what is this? And they want to go over and grab it like it's an exercise in.
[00:37:54.070] - Alan
It's like Tony Little's Gazelle.
[00:37:56.550] - Rhodes
They're into it.
[00:37:58.470] - Alan
I want to see a little muscle man with a long bond ponytail play one now. All right, so now we're going to get to the final game, the final williams super pin Roadshow, aka Funner house, the unofficial sequel to Fun House. This was also designed by Pat Lawlor. Like I said at the beginning of the episode, he was the only designer that got to do two. It sold 6259 units, so remarkably less and seems to be generally regarded as a letdown, especially after the four games he did in a row, like I mentioned before. But what do you guys think about Roadshow?
[00:38:35.020] - Alex
Well, like I always say, it's no nascar, so it's far from Pat's best game. But I don't like it. I don't know. For some reason it's one that I should play it more. But I hate the theme. I think it's God awful looking like the two heads again. That's a bad use of space to just. I don't like it. It feels congested on the upper left side, and that's where you got to shoot. That's the only place it feels like you're shooting. And there's obviously upper flippers and stuff to shoot the two heads. But overall, I just don't like how it shoots. I've never played it long enough to figure out the rules. Yeah, I can see why operators don't put it on location much because I can't imagine it earns very well. What do you think?
[00:39:10.300] - Rhodes
I think it does earn pretty well.
[00:39:11.830] - Alan
That game, some people like it.
[00:39:13.330] - Rhodes
It has the daily high score, which people love playing it because they're like, I got my name on now.
[00:39:19.270] - Alan
All jersey Jacks do that too now.
[00:39:20.930] - Rhodes
So it has that. And I think the game is good because it is gimmicky and it's fun and I think it's pretty funny. It kind of has, like, the one drunk construction worker who's always being lazy and wants to wait till it's Friday and it's time to party.
[00:39:36.220] - Alan
It's got the casual racism that's in.
[00:39:39.130] - Alex
A lot of those.
[00:39:39.800] - Alan
Yeah.
[00:39:39.940] - Alex
That defines that era, I guess.
[00:39:41.790] - Rhodes
It does have that.
[00:39:42.330] - Alan
But I do know that we have a guy that works with us, Anthony, and it's like one of his favorite games. He loves that game. Rhodesie has one, I have two, and he has two. And he's basically going to combine them into making one perfect one.
[00:39:56.380] - Alex
Could you put four heads in it?
[00:39:58.830] - Alan
We want to rebrand it as "Rhodes" show so it's branded after him.
[00:40:05.100] - Alex
That's an alternate backglass worth doing.
[00:40:07.060] - Rhodes
Yeah. But I think another thing that Roadshow has is you're trying to get across a map, which is really hard trying to get across the country, which is really hard to do in one game, and you can continue your game on. And I think that's something that I think the super pins did.
[00:40:28.990] - Alan
One of the ones where you can continue your game for one credit, you can add an extra ball. You can also earn a lot of extra balls in that game. Like all pat Lawlor designs. It seems like once you learn how to earn an extra ball in a Pat Lawlor game, he lets you do it every ball if you want to.
[00:40:41.650] - Rhodes
Kind of has that. So it's like, continue on the adventure. Continue on the adventure, add on instead of like, I guess start all the way from the beginning again. It's like, I want to see what this game does. I want to see what all the animations are. I think the rubber spear, I mean, come on.
[00:40:56.420] - Alan
Yeah, you can get souvenirs.
[00:40:58.330] - Rhodes
The souvenirs. You always got to buy the rubber spear.
[00:41:00.870] - Alan
Yeah. And it allows you to trade them if you want. You never trade them. You always keep them because they go to your bonus and stuff. I think that roadshow, nevertrade the rubber spear.
[00:41:07.920] - Rhodes
keep the rubber spear, always buy the rubber spear. It's a great purchase.
[00:41:11.920] - Alan
I think that roadshow is really underrated. I do think it's a lot of fun. Like I said, my friend Anthony, it's one of his favorite games. I was just like you. If you would have asked me this ten years ago, I would have said exactly like what you said, and then I would go out and play it with him and he taught me how to play it and what was going on, and I was like, okay, this game's fun. I do think it's fun. It's very unique. It's a Pat Lawlor game after all. I do think it's fun. I don't think it's as good as maybe all the other super pins that we mentioned, or in the top tier, but it's definitely firmly right in the middle. It's a fun game. I like it.
[00:41:44.990] - Alex
Maybe I'll come around on it if I actually put time on it ever.
[00:41:47.640] - Alan
We're going to try to put it in Wedgehead at some point.
[00:41:50.450] - Rhodes
No way I'm going to withhold it on Anthony. He askes me every day that he's there. He's like, hey, did you bring Roadshow? Where's Roadshow?
[00:41:57.010] - Alan
He's withholding it out of spite.
[00:41:59.400] - Alex
I know.
[00:41:59.750] - Rhodes
It's like. He's like, I love just kind of dangling it in front of him. I was like, I got two of them right next to each other...
[00:42:05.950] - Alan
I think the award that this deserves of all of it is most loaded game, and bang for your buck game. It's got to be the most complicated mechanical game ever built. I think, like the two working heads, you have two Rudy heads, which is already very complicated. Plus it's got the moving bulldozer.
[00:42:21.380] - Rhodes
They're honestly just copies of the other moving heads. So it was like, for them, it was a no brainer, sure.
[00:42:26.910] - Alan
But it's just like, that's a lot of stuff to just add in parts and manufacturing and just like the extra plunger with all the extra stuff, again, taken from Funhouse, it's got the earthquake shot. It's got the shaker motor in it too, and lots of diverters.
[00:42:41.250] - Rhodes
Is it the first game with the Shaker motor?
[00:42:42.750] - Alan
No. Yeah. Earth Shaker. Another Pat Lawlor game was the first.
[00:42:46.390] - Alex
Yeah.
[00:42:46.890] - Alex
Which makes sense theme wise.
[00:42:48.220] - Alan
It's just loaded, man. It's just loaded. I mean, all these super pins are loaded. Twilight Zone is probably the second most loaded game of all time.
[00:42:55.640] - Alex
That's a big part of why these games are so iconic, I think. And it's always kind of like the gold standard in every, like, we did that boutique episode. And a lot of boutique companies, when they start up, they think they're going to be like the Williams super pin equivalent.
[00:43:10.240] - Alan
Jersey Jack, that's what they wanted to be.
[00:43:12.160] - Rhodes
Yeah.
[00:43:12.410] - Alex
They came out with wide bodies. They're like, we're going to load them. And it's like they couldn't do it. They almost went out of business trying to do that. They had to go get more investor money or whatever. And it's like the Pinball Brothers or Heighway, whatever, with Alien. It's like everybody wants to do this and it's hard to do right. And even Bally Williams, watching their numbers kind of drop off over the run of these games, it's like they could see this wasn't equitable. They quit doing it.
[00:43:35.540] - Alan
Yeah.
[00:43:36.020] - Alex
So it's kind of interesting. It's like this little golden era of games.
[00:43:40.270] - Rhodes
Yeah.
[00:43:40.700] - Alan
It only lasted about a year, year and a half. It was an interesting experiment and we got a lot of cool games out of it.
[00:43:47.220] - Alex
Definitely.
[00:43:47.830] - Rhodes
Well, they're still trying to come up with new mechs that are going to keep players interested. Look at Venom with the way that it stages balls on the outer ramps. I think foo fighters kind of had some stuff in it that was never been done before. I think they're always trying to come up with new stuff. I don't think it's necessarily as much like motors and visual kind of yippee. Kind of blow your mind stuff anymore.
[00:44:12.210] - Alan
I mean, every pin is trying to give you that. These games used to give you multiple gimmicks in the same game, and now it's like you have one in a game maybe, and they do charge $3,000 more to get a premium, to get a second small mech sometimes.
[00:44:26.540] - Alex
Yeah.
[00:44:27.750] - Alan
That's the Bally Williams super pin era. A very interesting time in pinball. It's sort of like during the big resurgence and boom in the early nineties, then they decide to kind of double down and make these wide body pins. I think it's very interesting that every designer working there got to make one. So you get to see how every designer that was working there, what their wide body super pin would be.
[00:44:48.760] - Rhodes
Yeah.
[00:44:48.920] - Alex
It makes you really glad that Barry Oursler didn't have more budget on his other games.
[00:44:52.850] - Alan
Or just didn't have to work with Python on more of them. But so I'm going to go through to end on that note.
[00:45:00.420] - Rhodes
Were they making other games besides superpins?
[00:45:02.890] - Alan
They did make other games in between, but I'm going to go through and we're going to give each of our rankings. And I also reached out to our previous guests on the podcast, and I wanted everyone to rank their super pins on. There are seven of them, and I want everyone to rank them from best to worst. So I'm going to read everyone's list so that every listener out there can get an idea, look into our minds of what we like and what we don't like.
[00:45:27.120] - Rhodes
Okay.
[00:45:27.440] - Alan
Because they do vary quite a bit. And I'll start with mine. My rankings are Demolition Man number one. Which is obvious.
[00:45:35.480] - Rhodes
Controversial.
[00:45:36.500] - Alan
Controversial, I'd say. But it's the one I like the most. I think it's the best flowing game. Like I said, I also like the theme, and I just think Demolition Man rips. I just think it's so much f*cking fun to play. Number two, Star Trek Next Generation again, I love how brutal it is. I love how hard it is. I love Steve Ritchie. That's why we did the whole episode on him. Number three, Twilight Zone, one of Pat Lawlor's best games. I agree with the consensus that if it's not his best game, you're really splitting hairs as far as, like, maybe like, Funhouse a little bit better, maybe you like Addams, but it's epic. Number four, I put the other one. I put roadshow at number four on my list, which I think is high for most people's list. Number five, I put Indiana Jones. I love the theme. I don't think it's the most fun to shoot, which is the only thing that holds it back, because I do think theme integration is really good. Number six, I put Dredd. I don't think that game's very good. I think six and seven are both bad.
[00:46:33.790] - Alan
And Popeye at seven, I think it's, like, one of the worst games I've ever played. Even after being told that it's not. I don't like it. All right, so, Alex, what's your list?
[00:46:45.890] - Alex
I got to think about it for a second. I would probably do Next Gen at number one right now anyway. Twilight Zone would be second. Those are kind of a toss up. They're both very iconic games to me. They're both, like, classics for a reason.
[00:46:58.340] - Alan
You just gave me a different list before we started.
[00:47:00.840] - Alex
That's what I'm like as we talked about it. I kind of like her changing after that. Probably Demo Man, then Indiana Jones, then I guess Roadshow, just because I feel like I don't know it well enough. Then Dredd, then Popeye.
[00:47:16.770] - Alan
Okay.
[00:47:17.260] - Alex
And that. Like, Popeye. Yeah, man.
[00:47:19.080] - Alan
The list you gave me right before we started was Demo Man, Star Trek, Twilight Zone, Indy, Dredd, Roadshow, Popeye.
[00:47:25.140] - Alex
I thought about Demo Man a little more, and I think, I don't want to gas it up too much, because I see how it's affecting your ego over there, Alan.
[00:47:31.930] - Alan
I mean, here's the thing is, what's interesting is about the superpins. If you look at the pinside list, Demo Man is the second lowest, only above Popeye.
[00:47:39.430] - Alex
And part of why my reaction when we did the list the first time, I was looking at that. And I'm like, f*ck. Like, it's so good. But Twilight Zone and Next gen, that's hard for me. I do like Demo Man a lot though.
[00:47:50.770] - Alan
Okay, so what's your final list?
[00:47:52.210] - Rhodes
Sorry, I don't know, man.
[00:47:53.430] - Alex
You're going to ask me again, and I'm going to give you a third different list.
[00:47:56.170] - Alan
Going on.
[00:47:57.850] - Alan
Rhodesie.
[00:47:58.590] - Rhodes
Mine is definitely Twilight Zone, Star Trek next Generation. I'm going to go Indiana Jones, and then I'm going to go Demolition Man, Roadshow, Judge Dredd, Popeye.
[00:48:12.730] - Alan
I think that's kind of like general consensus or more close to the general consensus of that normal guy. You're just a regular old guy, just an ordinary dude. All right, so I got Zoe's list. As listeners. Remember Zoe Vrabel? She was on the Howdy Pardner episode, and is a good friend of the show. Her number one was Twilight Zone. Her number two was Demolition Man. Her number three was Roadshow, four, Indiana Jones five, Star Trek next gen six, Judge Dredd. Seven, Popeye. So I think the big surprise is that Star Trek drops out of the top three, and that Roadshow makes the top three.
[00:48:48.750] - Alex
Yeah.
[00:48:49.370] - Alan
Greg Dunlap, who we talked about on the episode, interviewing about a pinball programmer. His list is number one, Twilight Zone, number two, Demolition Man. Number three, Star Trek number four, Indy number five, Roadshow number six, Dredd. Number seven, Popeye. I mean, not surprising here. All right, then I'll get to the two guys that came on this podcast to defend Popeye. I'll get to their list. I'll start with Ty Ueda of three knocks pinball. And his number one is Star Trek next gen, number two, twilight zone number three, demolition man number four, Indiana Jones number five, Popeye. Number six, roadshow number seven, Dredd. So he didn't go crazy.
[00:49:31.030] - Alex
Yeah, he knew what to push there.
[00:49:32.920] - Rhodes
Yeah.
[00:49:33.260] - Alan
So I think it was measured. Yeah, you're like, I was expecting to see it top three or four, but he puts it at number five. And finally, Daniel Radin, who operates as Our Lady of Pinball and is the other half of Pop's pinball in Boston. He ranks them as number one, twilight zone number two, Star Trek number three, Popeye. Number four, Indy, number five, Roadshow number six, Dredd. Number seven, Demo Man. He puts it dead last.
[00:49:57.840] - Alex
Yeah, he's just like, spite ranking it for you, no one in the world genuinely believes Popeye's better than those other four games.
[00:50:05.880] - Alan
Well, Daniel does.
[00:50:06.900] - Rhodes
No, that's bull.
[00:50:07.810] - Alan
Some people do.
[00:50:08.600] - Alex
I think in his heart of hearts, he knows what he's doing.
[00:50:11.520] - Alan
Send all the hate mail. I'll give Alex's home address. I'm kidding. But anyway, this has been the super pin episode of the Wedgehead pinball podcast. I think we had a nice, long talk about super pins.
[00:50:24.300] - Alex
There are four super pins, two okayish pins, and one that's technically a pinball machine.
[00:50:28.850] - Alan
Yeah, I guess that's fair. Till next time, go out, find some super pins on location, play them, and then you can let us know, either on our Instagram, following us at at wedgeheadpdx, or sending us an email at wedgeheadinfo@gmail.com. Until the next time, Good luck. Don't suck.
